Comments on: A Response to Cline http://churchvoices.com/archives/281 Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:02:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Joe http://churchvoices.com/archives/281/comment-page-1#comment-3522 Joe Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:14:24 +0000 http://churchvoices.com/?p=281#comment-3522 You can "tell" that he's wrong, but you can't "tell" us how and why he's wrong. Doesn't really sound like there is anything to "tell" after all. You can “tell” that he’s wrong, but you can’t “tell” us how and why he’s wrong.

Doesn’t really sound like there is anything to “tell” after all.

]]> By: Chad McIntosh http://churchvoices.com/archives/281/comment-page-1#comment-3426 Chad McIntosh Tue, 04 Jul 2006 07:02:03 +0000 http://churchvoices.com/?p=281#comment-3426 Maybe your confidence in God and Christ crumbled because you didn't have a proper understanding of them. I am not big into theology, but I can tell just by reading your comment that you had/have an inaccurate understanding of Christian theology. Maybe your confidence in God and Christ crumbled because you didn’t have a proper understanding of them. I am not big into theology, but I can tell just by reading your comment that you had/have an inaccurate understanding of Christian theology.

]]> By: Craig Duckett http://churchvoices.com/archives/281/comment-page-1#comment-3424 Craig Duckett Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:33:24 +0000 http://churchvoices.com/?p=281#comment-3424 I was started evolving beyond Christianity "morality" when my non-Christian friend died and the professors and students at the Bible college I was attending made it abundently clear that my deceased friend was going to spend eternity in Hell. For two weeks I suffered with this knowledge until one night (my own Long Dark Night of the Soul) I wept uncontrollably and threw myself to the floor and beseeched God with an offer: I asked God if I could take my friend's place in Hell so that he could go to Heaven. My friend wouldn't have to know I did this for him. He didn't have to thank me or behave a certain way. The only goal I had in mind was to save him unconditionally. I meant this with every fiber of my being and repeated the offer several times throughout the night. Suddenly I was touched by a dawning revelation. Here I was, a mere mortal, a sinful human being, willing to swap places with his friend in Hell simply as an act of unconditional love. It was John 15:13 taken to the extreme: "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." Not only was I willing to lay down my life for my friend, I was willing to lay down my eternal life without asking anything in return. All at once it I realized that this seemed like a more noble sacrifice than even God was willing to make for me, for my friend, the people of this world. According to the doctrines of the church, God was unwilling to save me unless I did something first. In other words, with God salvation is conditional. We human beings have to do something in order to be saved which means that ultimately it isn't God that saves us or Jesus that saves us but something we do, because if we don't do this particular 'something' then we will go to Hell. I knew right then and there that the Christian notion of God was of a small and selfish God, a petty God that would threaten and punish if He didn't get His acknowledgement. The next morning I also understood Christian morality for what it really is. I made one last 'deal' with God. I explained to Him that as long as He was sending even one person to Hell I could not conscientiously allow myself to go to Heaven. How could I morally and ethically accept Heaven knowing others like me were suffering in Hell? I could not, and I can not to this day. Make no mistake--I am a "Born Again" Christian, but I have returned my Salvation on moral principles. To me it seems the only moral choice. If Christians in Heaven were of a truly moral they would defy God, storm the gates of Hell, and free the prisoners. Anything less is immoral, self-serving, and selfish. Therein lays the barometer of your own spiritual growth: Are you willing to trade places with someone in Hell or return your Salvation on purely ethical principles? If you are, what does this say about your definition of God? If you aren't what does this say about your own moral character? How much are you willing to do for love or do you ultimately only love yourself? I was started evolving beyond Christianity “morality” when my non-Christian friend died and the professors and students at the Bible college I was attending made it abundently clear that my deceased friend was going to spend eternity in Hell. For two weeks I suffered with this knowledge until one night (my own Long Dark Night of the Soul) I wept uncontrollably and threw myself to the floor and beseeched God with an offer: I asked God if I could take my friend’s place in Hell so that he could go to Heaven. My friend wouldn’t have to know I did this for him. He didn’t have to thank me or behave a certain way. The only goal I had in mind was to save him unconditionally. I meant this with every fiber of my being and repeated the offer several times throughout the night. Suddenly I was touched by a dawning revelation. Here I was, a mere mortal, a sinful human being, willing to swap places with his friend in Hell simply as an act of unconditional love. It was John 15:13 taken to the extreme: “Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” Not only was I willing to lay down my life for my friend, I was willing to lay down my eternal life without asking anything in return. All at once it I realized that this seemed like a more noble sacrifice than even God was willing to make for me, for my friend, the people of this world. According to the doctrines of the church, God was unwilling to save me unless I did something first. In other words, with God salvation is conditional. We human beings have to do something in order to be saved which means that ultimately it isn’t God that saves us or Jesus that saves us but something we do, because if we don’t do this particular ’something’ then we will go to Hell. I knew right then and there that the Christian notion of God was of a small and selfish God, a petty God that would threaten and punish if He didn’t get His acknowledgement. The next morning I also understood Christian morality for what it really is. I made one last ‘deal’ with God. I explained to Him that as long as He was sending even one person to Hell I could not conscientiously allow myself to go to Heaven. How could I morally and ethically accept Heaven knowing others like me were suffering in Hell? I could not, and I can not to this day. Make no mistake–I am a “Born Again” Christian, but I have returned my Salvation on moral principles. To me it seems the only moral choice. If Christians in Heaven were of a truly moral they would defy God, storm the gates of Hell, and free the prisoners. Anything less is immoral, self-serving, and selfish. Therein lays the barometer of your own spiritual growth: Are you willing to trade places with someone in Hell or return your Salvation on purely ethical principles? If you are, what does this say about your definition of God? If you aren’t what does this say about your own moral character? How much are you willing to do for love or do you ultimately only love yourself?

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