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Mawidge, Mawidge is what bwings us twogetha twoday.
07.14.2008 by Christian
I recently found out about the wedding of a homosexual friend of mine from High School. I lost track of her shortly after graduating H.S. and was saddened to hear about it. Being a minister, I’m often surprised and dissapointed to hear about the choices of other ministers.
Ministers take different approaches to doing weddings. Some will only marry members of their congregation, some will marry any two Christians, some will marry any male/female couple, and some will marry anybody to anybody else. Most conservative ministers won’t condemn another minister for their personal marriage policies, as long as that policy excludes the marrying of homosexual couples. (Depending on where you live, my discussion of homosexual unions includes any kind of ceremony performed by the minister in recognition of the relationship of the couple.)
From Leviticus, we are shown that such relationships are an abomination (detestable). But there are other things mentioned in Scripture that are equally, if not more detestable. Deuteronomy 25:16 tells us that a person who uses dishonest weights and measurements is an abomination - “For everyone who does these things, everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God.” I find it interesting that the act of a male lying with a male in Leviticus is an abomination but the very person themselves who acts unjustly is an abomination to God. Ouch. Would I be willing to marry two people who are dishonest? Would I care if another minister was willing to do that? Some might joke that they deserve eachother.
Marriage is important to the family. Being rooted in Christ is more important. I think this deals with the issue of correcting behavior of a person who is destined for Hell. Kind of like standing on land yelling at a person who is drowning that they aren’t treading water properly, instead of swimming out there and helping them to shore. I am glad when a person chooses not to sin, but it’s irrelevant compared with their relationship to God. My role is not to help people be better sinners, but to share Christ with them. So how do you love such a couple without approving or participating in their defiance of God? How do you be Christ in their lives?
If I was still close to my friend, and she asked me to perform her ceremony, I would think long and hard about it. A few years ago, I probably would have just said no. Today, I’m not sure. If I can marry a man and a woman who do not have Christ as their foundation, who are not in Christ, why draw the line at a homosexual ceremony?
July 15th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I always feel one as to give a mini CV before posting on this subject,anyhow i lived a bi lifestyle,my flatmate and many friends are still bi or gay,so i hope i don’t come over as mr meanie..
I think you would be wrong to marry a gay couple imo..A man and woman that marry though unsaved ,are surly still honouring the ideals that Jesus clearly states a marriage is,i don’t think there’s any place in scripture that doesn’t equate marriage with two people from the opposite sex..
On a personal note my parent’s (though unsaved) marriage as been extreamly blessed,and i wonder if God still honours people that still honour his plans for a marriage is ..
July 15th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I always feel one as to give a mini CV before posting on this subject,anyhow i lived a bi lifestyle,my flatmate and many friends are still bi or gay,so i hope i don’t come over as mr meanie..
I think you would be wrong to marry a gay couple imo..A man and woman that marry though unsaved ,are surly still honouring the ideals of what Jesus clearly states a marriage is,i don’t think there’s any place in scripture that doesn’t equate marriage with two people from the opposite sex..
On a personal note my parent’s (though unsaved) marriage as been extreamly blessed,and i wonder if God still honours people that still honour His plans for what a marriage is ..
July 15th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
oops sorry double post first one was a mistake lol
July 15th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Andy, I’m not trying to support gay marriage. And I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t perform such a ceremony. The point is to consider why, and to answer the question of how to share Christ with that couple.
Thanks for sharing.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
But you seem to be implying theres no differences in marrying non christians in comparrison to marrying a gay couple..
I think there is a differences,due to the fact that one still follows the ideals of the institution set out by God,all be it subconsiously…
Let me add i’m not adverse to civil arrangement,its everyone’s right to share or leave their belongs to who they see fit,and to have the law regonize that choice..I think if i was a pastor i would agree to that,a cival union,kind of meet half way??
As far as sharing Christ,i understand your concerns its tough,very tough..Some of my friends can’t get past the fact i think their lifestyle is sinful,conversation’s kind of falls at the first hurdle..
I guess just be loving and be there when they need you,without compromising what you believe?
July 19th, 2008 at 1:01 am
There is a technique of argument called,
“drawing moral equivalence,” that is often employed to justify the doing of wrong things.
For instance, this minister, in attempting to influence us toward consideration of
“gay” marriage, attempts to position it as
no more abominable than any other abomination. So, his logic goes, since we
cannot avoid participating in abomination, anyway, wouldn’t it be the “loving” thing to do to at least go, “I’m not sure,” when
it comes to “marrying” a homosexual couple.
In other words, “as long as we are going to do this wrong thing anyway, why object to doing that other wrong thing?”
Real (as opposed to fanciful) moral theology calls this “accommodating evil.”
This minister asks if, as long as he has to marry people who are outside of Christ, and therefore in abomination, anyway, why
forbear marrying sodomites. (I think that,
here, we’re supposed to consider the
“fairness” of “discriminating” against
different types of abominations!).
My question is, what’s he doing performing
Christian marriages for non-Christians, in
the first place? Is it “loving” to invoke the power and blessing of God on behalf of a lie?
The same thing applies to a pretend-marriage (for that is what it is, regardless of the trappings or the statutes) between people of the same sex.
Is it “loving,” or even sane, to invoke the
power and blessing of God upon something He
has Himself called an abomination?
I like the analogy of responding to someone who is too far out to swim back,
who doesn’t realize it and is unwisely
confident.
The loving thing to do is get into a boat, go out to him, and inform him he’s
in trouble. When he resists that (as all our self-esteem programs have taught him to do) we need to be as convincing as we can be, to try to get him into the boat.
If he insists he’s fine (having re-imagined the situation and created a more
desirable reality), the loving thing to do
is to stay close enough to scoop him into
the boat once he realizes he’s in trouble–
to remain a friendly presence, available to him without accommodating his fantasy.
Surely the swimmer would become annoyed,
asking who we think we are, questioning
“his” reality and “his” truth. Defiantly, he might even demand we throw him an anchor to hold, just to prove he can do
what he says he can do.
The distinctly UN-loving thing to do would be to hand him the anchor, saying,
“I’m glad you’re fine. Here…” and
participating in the lie he’s telling himself. All that would do, as in the case of “marrying” a same-sex couple, would be
to help sink him.
So, for that matter, would performing a
Christian marriage for non-Christians be.
Better to refer them to a judge. Better to
refer the homosexuals to a corporation and tax lawyer, who could accomplish the legalities for the same price as a wedding.
Best to do it as a friend, with the kind of
integrity that prompts respect and demonstrates moral consistency and
trustworthiness, and a word of assurance that we’ll be around if–and whenever–we’re needed.
in Christ,
Fr. Jim <
July 19th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Jim,
The author reads this and requests enough respect that you speak to him, not about him.
Also, who said I was performing Christian marriages for non-Christians. Read the piece again.
Andy, not so much imply, but explore if there is a difference. According to Jim (hehe, if you don’t get that, watch more TV), he thinks there is no difference. He just takes the line that you shouldn’t perform a Christian wedding for anybody that is not in Christ. And if he practices that, that’s fine.
I know many a conservative minister that will perform those weddings out of a desire to share Jesus with the couple and their families and friends.
Maybe I asked my question in a poor way. But we still need to ask these questions, to search the scriptures for answers, to uncover the attitudes of our hearts, and to make every effort to share Jesus with our neighbor.
I did ask a question, I do appreciate thoughts on the issue, but if you are a Christian seeking to be obedient to the Word, help us all out by posting scripture with your thoughts. Or at least address the passages I brought up.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Christian,
I have a fairly liberal policy concerning weddings. Frankly, I have an easier time marrying two not Christians than two Christians. And, honestly, I get more requests to conduct more weddings for not-Christians, co-habitating couples, previously married couples, mixed couples, lapsed Christians, or otherwise haters of Christians than I do for Christians. I look at these folks and see an opportunity to demonstrate God’s grace.
I look at it this way, the issue here is not whether or not a person is a Christian, but whether or not the two people want to get married. They will end up married either way–whether I do it or whether they go to the JOP or the Unitarian Universalist or Fortune Teller down the road. When I do weddings for not-Christians I look at it as an opportunity to preach the Gospel through the ceremony itself; to plant seeds that God can make grow in his time. There is witness and testimony in the ceremony I use–which is heavily laded with Scripture. If they are willing to tolerate it, and actually request a ‘Christian’ ceremony, why should I refuse the opportunity to do so?
Ironically, marriage is not a Christian ‘institution’ even if there are specific guidelines that Christian follow after the ceremony and they are actually MARRIED. It is a human institution, given to man (humans) by God at the time of creation. There is very little in Scripture that directly addresses the actual ceremony itself even if there are rules for how the marriage is to be lived out once it is accomplished. Nowhere in Scripture is a minister, in the modern or ancient senses of the word, forbidden to conduct the essentially secular wedding ceremony of two people. Nor are we forbidden to invoke God’s blessing through prayer and Scripture on the couple.
The line is drawn, I think, when there are two people and one is a Christian and the other not; that wedding I could not conduct. And when the government begins mandating that Christian ministers conduct homosexual ‘marriages’ I will simply turn in my license and not perform any ceremonies at all.
I guess for me, the bottom line is that every ceremony I conduct is an opportunity to demonstrate grace–not only to the perspective couple, but also to the congregation that gathers to participate and witness the event itself. I think Jesus said, “Love…” (without an agenda).
Just my two cents.
y/f
jerry
July 25th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Jerry, I might of missed something, but how does that personal policy relate to homosexual unions? (I get the rest and have known other ministers with a similar policy for similar reasons.)